Stop Ignoring This Missing Piece of Health: Why Food Alone Isn’t Enough

We talk a lot about nutrition in the plant-based world—and for good reason.

A whole-food, plant-based diet can dramatically improve heart health, metabolic disease, and longevity. But according to Dr. Matthew Lederman, food is only part of the story.

In a recent episode of the Plant-Based Support Podcast, lifestyle medicine physician Dr. Niki Davis sits down with Dr. Lederman to explore a powerful but often overlooked driver of health: connection.

Dr. Lederman shares a striking case where diet remained constant, yet health outcomes changed dramatically.

What shifted? The environment. When someone moved into a space where they felt safe, supported, connected, and purposeful, their entire nervous system shifted. “The only thing that changed,” he explains, “was that she was no longer living in threat physiology.”

This conversation challenges a common assumption in health care—that fixing food, exercise, or medication alone is enough. Dr. Lederman emphasizes that meaning, purpose, love, trust, and safety are biological needs. When those needs go unmet, the body stays in chronic stress, impairing immune function and healing.

Importantly, this doesn’t mean people must radically uproot their lives overnight.

Real change often begins with something much smaller: awareness. Simply acknowledging unmet needs—and allowing yourself to contemplate change—can start shifting physiology toward healing.

They also discuss why fear keeps people stuck in unhealthy situations, and how most people only change when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the fear of change. There’s no one-size-fits-all path—only the process of reconnecting with what truly matters.

The takeaway is both hopeful and empowering: nutrition is foundational, but connection is transformative. When we support the nervous system alongside the body, true healing becomes possible.

👉 Learn more and join the community at plantbasedsupport.org

Episode’s Transcript

Please understand that a transcription service provided the transcript below. It undoubtedly contains errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions.

Niki Davis, MD (00:02.532)

Hello, I'm Dr. Nikki Davis and this is the Plant-Based Support Podcast where we share evidence-based wisdom, real stories, and support for your journey to better health through plant-based living. Now, I actually started as an engineer on the Space Shuttle program before making a big change in my own health and career by moving to a plant-based diet. And now I'm a lifestyle medicine physician helping patients all over the world through lifestyletelemedicine.com.

Today, I get to chat with Dr. Matthew Liederman. Now, he's an internal medicine doctor and a leader in whole person healthcare. Someone who really focuses on the importance of connection, compassion, and lifestyle. But before we dive in, let's take a quick learning moment. Now, one thing I love about Dr. Liederman's work is how much he emphasizes the role of human connection.

Research shows that strong, supportive relationships are just as important for our health as what we eat or how much we exercise. They lower stress, strengthen immunity, and even help prevent chronic disease. So when we talk about healing, it's not just about food, it's about community and connection too. So today I am so excited to welcome Dr. Matthew Liederman. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Matthew Lederman (01:21.4)

Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. It's great to be here.

Niki Davis, MD (01:23.543)

Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, so the way I like to get started is, know, because people are gonna be listening to this and maybe they aren't aware of you and kind of what you've done. So why don't we start with the basics of just who are you and how did you get to this point in your life to what you are doing today?

Matthew Lederman (01:44.846)

Thanks. I'm an internal medicine physician by training and then got into nutrition and lifestyle medicine, worked at a concierge clinic where we helped people make diet and lifestyle change to reverse chronic disease. We did that in Los Angeles for a while and then got connected with Brian Wendell to do the Forks Over Knives documentary and saw patients for that film and helped them reverse disease to document that in the film.

And then from there got into working with Whole Foods Market and helping them open up medical centers that treated patients with this more comprehensive approach, health coaching and just whole person wellness, trying to prevent disease and give them really good high value medical care from the Western medicine is great.

when used appropriately and then couple with that good, good nutrition and lifestyle medicine to really help people heal. And we did that for about 10 years and then went back out and really started embracing the impact of connection on health. And I had that an experience personally where connection helped me treat chronic back pain that I couldn't feel otherwise. And there's now data that supports

why that worked, but at the time there were some guys that were doing that and there were some books about it, but I thought it was crazy. But now that the science is really coming out more and more supporting how this, how connection is impacting your health. That's really where we put a lot of our energy and I got certified in non-violent communication, which was a four year program. For me, it was harder than going to medical school to try and master that work. And it's still an ongoing.

ongoing challenge. But that's where I spend so much time now is, Alona does a lot of when my wife, who's also a physician, and we work together on the have a virtual health and wellness program. And she does a lot of women's health and connection and particularly for people who want to make know what to do, but they're having a hard time doing it. Everybody knows what to eat to be healthier, or a lot of people do, but they have a hard time making those changes. So she works with them. And then I started

Matthew Lederman (04:09.964)

moving into really focusing on connection. I work with lot of couples and parents and helping people enhance connection because I see the impact that has on not only their wellbeing, but their health. And that's been a majority of my focus now. But we still do the diet and people think, why did you switch? We didn't switch, we added. So the nutrition is a foundational piece.

And we don't think you can achieve optimum health and wellness without having your nutrition and, know, optimized. But there's a lot of people that do the diet and they leave the connection off the table and they're missing out on a

Niki Davis, MD (04:49.432)

Yeah, so, you know, it sounds like this connection piece is really just, you know, one of those six pillars of lifestyle medicine, the social connectedness and positive psychology. So do you work with people on both of those aspects or is it mainly the, you know, establishing healthy relationships and having those deep relationships?

Matthew Lederman (05:12.832)

It's see, I think of it a little bit differently than social connection and positive psychology. think what it's bigger than that for me. It's about being able to connect to what you're feeling and what you're needing and share that with other people in a way that brings you closer together. It's particularly now where there's so much hate. It's how do we sift how we think?

and how we perceive what's happening in the world around us so that we can transform that and become and come closer to people and communicate in a way that brings us closer, even when people are doing things that we hate. So when there's suppression in your body, when you feel angry, but you don't share it because you're worried it's going to cause a mess. When you have needs, but you don't share them because either you haven't learned how to connect to your needs or you're worried that people aren't going to care about them or they're going to

get defensive or upset when you share your needs. All of that suppression actually triggers the inflammatory response. It causes different pathways. There's something called the cell danger response. There's something called the conserved transcriptional response to adversity, which is how your immune system responds. there's people, I'm not sure if they've heard of polyvagal theory, but all of this describes when you...

suppress or tell your body that it's unsafe to share something, it's unsafe to say something, it's unsafe to be who you are. All of that triggers all of these pathways that increase things like cancer spread, inflammation, decrease our ability to fight viruses, cause our gut to shut down, affect our reproductive abilities. I mean, it's really fascinating how all of this is impacted. And to me, it's not just about

being around more people, although that is helpful. It's about how do I show up around those people and how do I receive what those people say, even if they use words that trigger me, can I transform and translate that so that I can get closer to them instead of pulling away and hating them?

Niki Davis, MD (07:21.52)

So fascinating. You know, I'm wondering about this in a, in a way of, you know, what, what is kind of natural human behavior and is this something that comes naturally to some, and is maybe more difficult for others? Is it something that needs to be learned and practiced to get good at?

What do you think?

Matthew Lederman (07:46.958)

So that's a good question. This is our natural way of being with people until we become socialized and educated to do it differently. And I think we are from way, way when we're babies, we're very authentic. We cry when we're hungry, we cry when we need to be changed. And when we get food, we stop crying. We don't get angry and say, can you believe that mother isn't feeding me? or you just

cry and then she feeds you and you're happy and you're content. We communicate authentically and we don't take it personally until we get old enough to start distorting what happens in an effort to try and protect ourselves. So we meet needs for protection by judging other people. And a lot of people are then taught that they can express their unmet needs through judgment of what other people are doing wrong. So for example,

If something, if my need isn't being met, instead of telling you about that, I'm going to tell you what you're doing wrong or what's wrong with you. So I'll say that person talks too much instead of saying, I'm really wanting to be heard. And that's the beginning of dehumanizing the other person, which is then the beginning of allowing violence to happen, whether it's emotional or physical or both. So what we do is you have to retrain the body, you have to retrain the brain. I mean, think about this.

we're not taught to think about what's going on inside of us. We're taught to do what other people think is right. What's going to make our parents happy? What's going to make our teachers give us good grades? What's going to make our bosses pay us more? So it's all about external versus what aligns with my values and what my values are what keep me kind and caring and connected because I value those things. And then I'm going to have my behaviors ideally aligned with those values. So

So we're learning how to focus on what other people want from us. And we're also learning how to judge other people when they're not doing something we like, which begins the dehumanization and the objectification of other people, which then leads us down a very dangerous road. that's the challenge right now is how do we stop dehumanizing

Matthew Lederman (10:11.086)

so that we can stay in connection with them. And never did we need this more than we need right now.

Niki Davis, MD (10:17.173)

Right? Yeah. And that, you know, of course, I'm sure social media and just, you know, living online these days, I mean, most of us are connecting with other people, not in person, but over, you know, over these, you know, media, you know, through media and things like that. So, boy, I mean, that's just, that seems like such a difficult topic to.

to deal with, is there anything that you recommend to people that has to do with that specifically? Because I imagine that that definitely plays a part in that dehumanizing.

Matthew Lederman (10:57.602)

Yeah, so it's.

Matthew Lederman (11:02.722)

Yeah, it's very hard to change how other people show up. A lot of times, in fact, when we try to, if we think what someone else is doing and our goal is to get them to stop doing it, violence looks like a really good option. But if we think about sort of what's going on inside of us and how we show up, that affects how the other person shows up. So if you get angry at me and I'm able to stay curious and open and not take it personally or hear blame,

All of a sudden, now my system doesn't go into threat physiology, which is the pro-inflammatory state. And I'm able to not only help you be heard, which is really what your goal is when you get angry at me, and then we stay in connection. So not only does it improve just well-being, it actually helps both of our nervous systems to prevent going into pro-inflammatory states. So that's where the language of non-voluntary communication gives us the tools

to do that. So when you get angry and you say, Hey, Matt, you know, I told you to, you know, be at this podcast at, three o'clock and you weren't here till 315, you know, and that's really disrespectful. That's not actually what happened, by the way, I'm just using as an example, the the but do you see how that that could I could be like, Oh my god, she thinks I'm this bad person. Then I get defensive. And I say, I'm not this bad guy. I'm not inconsiderate. And then I attack you back. I'm like, you're being me.

And now my nervous system is in threat physiology, which is pro-inflammatory. Yours is in threat physiology, which is pro-inflammatory. And we don't feel very happy. We don't feel very good right now. We don't have a state of inner peace. Or if you say, you know what? You were supposed to be here at 3 o'clock and it's 3.15. That's disrespectful. I can choose to shift what I hear and then I can empathize and I can say, Nikki, I'm hearing that you really...

that are needing more respect and consideration. And you were really hoping I would show up on at this time that I agreed to. So maybe you're wanting some integrity around agreements and you're feeling really frustrated about what happened. That makes sense, especially if you're thinking that I don't care about why, you know, I just show up whenever I want. I get it. I get why you're angry, Nikki. And you're like, yeah, now watch how hard it is to stay angry when I do that. And then.

Niki Davis, MD (13:27.666)

Right.

Matthew Lederman (13:30.286)

And then I can say, hey, Nikki, I get why you're angry. Is it OK if I share what happened so that you can see it differently and that it's not that I don't care about you? And you're going to say, OK, and I'm going to say, you know what happened? I fell down the steps and I have an ice bag on my knee right now and it really hurts. I I got here as soon as I could. And I really do wish I was able to get on time because I value keeping agreements to Nikki. And you say, oh, and now all of a sudden you're coming out with care. Your nervous system goes into a

parasympathetic tone, it's anti-inflammatory, it supports digestion, it supports reproduction, it supports blood flow to the parts of our brain that allow us to connect. It does all these wonderful things. And all that had to happen was I had to show up and hear you differently. Do you see how that works?

Niki Davis, MD (14:20.722)

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. All right, well, I would love to...

Matthew Lederman (14:26.158)

It sounds like it's very nice to people. sorry, there's a delay. Go ahead.

Niki Davis, MD (14:30.876)

Go ahead.

Matthew Lederman (14:35.83)

Okay, and it sounds like, that's just being nice. And it's not about being nice. It's about what feels better in my body. I mean, it's great that it has a positive impact on you. But when I show up with connection and care for you and for me, all of a sudden my body feels better. And not only does it feel better on just to be, you know, physically, I now know from all the studies that are coming out,

I know that my immune system is transcribing different genes based on the fact that I'm in this pro connected state. I know that the ATP that's coming out of my cells and the mitochondria are forming differently in my body because, and this is happening second to second, minute to minute. I know that my blood flow is different. I know that the messages coming from my vagus nerve to all of my organs and my gut and my kidneys and my lungs and my heart.

are firing different in a way that supports them to function optimally. So do see what I'm saying? Like to me, it's great that the food is there, but why not do this too?

Niki Davis, MD (15:46.706)

Yeah, yeah. So, having said that, I would love to hear if you have any cases, I mean, of course, not sharing anything specific or any names, but if you've seen any success stories or improvements in people by not only adding the plant foods and just a healthy lifestyle in general, but this piece that we've been talking about today.

Matthew Lederman (16:18.19)

Yeah, I can actually give you a personal story. My daughter, Kylie, who's 13, who's been very open about her Crohn's disease. And she got Crohn's disease. She was on sort of a junk food vegan diet. And she got into a time where we were moved away from some family and it was, she was pretty isolated and dealing with some bullying in school. And she then transitioned to homeschool. And she got this Crohn's disease that a pro and inflammation number, let's say around 500. They measure inflammation.

Cal protecting, it was a measure of inflammation in the gut. And her number was high. And we decided to move back to being near family and to start in a different school. And we changed her diet to really healthy whole food, plant-based diet. And that number went down to like 120. And normal is like, borderline is like 50 to 100. So she was like very low level and we're like, okay, she's getting there. But then what happened when she went to this new school?

They started having disconnection at the school and she was having some trouble there. And what happened was the numbers started going up, but we didn't know that it was because of that. And we were the super clean. mean, you should see the diet that she was on and nothing seemed to get the inflammation went back up to that level of 500. And we couldn't figure it out. We couldn't figure out like what else we can't. There's physically nothing else to change in her diet. We optimized all of the nutrients, you know, the

vitamin D and everything else. And we were getting to the point where her school was really isolating for her, where the kids would sometimes not talk to her for a day and she wouldn't know what was happening. And she'd be like, I don't even know why they're mad, but they're not talking to me and they're saying mean things. And so was very, this chronic, unpredictable stress is one of the most toxic things for the body, where it's like this slow drip.

of unpredictability and isolation and loneliness. And that's what she was going through. And at the end of this past school year, which was the end of May, we checked her numbers and it was like still at the 500 level. And we were basically like, OK, she's to have to go on biologic drugs to suppress her immune system. And we kept the diet the same, but she finished school and we and she knew we were moving.

Matthew Lederman (18:38.094)

to another place, she was gonna have to start a new school. We actually moved from Los Angeles to Princeton, New Jersey. And at the same time, she started this theater class, which she loves. She loves musical theater and she was doing this for the entire summer. And she would come home smiling and she'd say, people are so nice dad. And these are my people dad, why can't everybody be this nice? And two months later, we checked this number again, right before we left and it was 90. Nothing changed in the diet. For two years we've been

battling and figuring out what is it? We can't figure it out. And this is the only thing that changed. I mean, to me, I almost fell on the floor because I knew it was important, but we were controlling her diet. We know exactly what she's eating and we were controlling her diet before. And the only thing that changed was she was in an environment where she was supported. She felt safe. She was connected and it was.

It was just so powerful that she was able to experience this meaning and purpose and connection and safety and love that her immune system responded within a matter of months. That's how quickly it can happen.

Matthew Lederman (00:02.584)

So the fact that we were controlling her diet basically shows that that was a constant the entire time. But and the only thing that changed was she was in this environment where now she's feeling safe and supported and there's connection and care and there's meaning and you know, she's getting up in the morning and happy to be with these people and like not going into threat physiology every morning, every day.

for two months and her entire nervous system shifted.

Niki Davis, MD (00:40.402)

So I guess, you know, that's incredible, but it's also very challenging because, you know, there's only so much that we can control in our environment, what we're exposed to. So, you know, can you share kind of what the plan is going forward, knowing this about her experience?

Matthew Lederman (01:02.658)

Yeah, so it's very important that people don't think I have to move and leave my job. Although it's interesting, I used to tell Alona when I have these clients that we'd work with that would get late stage cancer. And the ones that always had these miraculous changes in turn, these are the ones that really changed their lives. They would leave their jobs or an unhappy relationship or they would...

change their jobs to something they've always wanted to do and they would move to some place they always wanted to live and they would take up these activities that they always wanted to take up and all of a sudden their bodies would shift and they're these would be the ones and so I used to tell people you know I don't know exactly the science behind it but it seems like people that take on like these you know become triathletes and they you know they find this new job that they're passionate about and

There's something there beyond just the diet changes. And I think it comes back to that meaning and purpose and connection. And ultimately that leads to what helps the nervous system feel safe and it shifts physiology in a way that not only allows us to stop spreading cancer, but allows our immune systems to fight cancer and do all sorts of other things that are health promoting. So.

So that's what I tell people. I say, what you need to do is make sure we're meeting these needs, these needs for meaning and purpose. Why are you getting up in the morning? We need to make sure you do feel safe and supported. We need to know that you're feeling connected and you're meeting needs for intimacy and love. And it doesn't mean you have to get married. It means that we have to find ways to meet these needs. There's lots of strategies and we've got to make sure that you're not alone, that you're not feeling lonely and isolated. And some people...

They just need one friend and they're just thriving. They're doing really well. And other people, they need something different. And it's helping people figure out what's gonna meet their needs for this connection and love and intimacy and meaning and purpose and trust and safety. And once we figure all of that out, then can they take action to make those changes? And like I said, it doesn't have to be where they completely throw their life up in the air.

Matthew Lederman (03:24.534)

It can be, and sometimes that's the easiest way to make some major changes, but it doesn't have to be that way. So Kylie is learning how to connect, Kylie's learning how to connect differently with people, and Kylie's learning how to pick friends that are different. And we moved to a place that seems to be more supportive of anti-bullying and more supportive of inclusion and

Kylie's also growing and learning and she knows how she showed up in these places. It always takes two and she's like, hey, there's things I could have done differently to dead. And I'm going to really make sure that I do my best to do those things differently. You know, for example, she used to say that she would take things personally. And if she wasn't included rather than speaking up, she would go to a hurt place. And then that would cause her to feel offended. And maybe she would have anger or resentment to the other person, which would cause them.

to step back from her and then it could snowball. So it's like, hey, how quickly can we, instead of going to a hurt place, can we see somebody's good intentions and then try to reconnect with them and then practice those skills with her, not only at school, but at home. And that's what we've done. And we'll see. And every day is a journey. like I said, we're in a new place. So she gets to try again and start over. And the same thing with me, I moved out here.

I was not very aggressive at trying to build community when I was in Los Angeles. And I said, this is my most important need right now. And when I came out here, I said, I'm going to do, because once you're clear on your needs, then you can take action to meet them. And a lot of people aren't clear what their needs are. So all of a sudden now it's like a completely different experience. And, you know, it's just because I was so crystal clear and, you know, there's some other little things, but I think being clear on your needs is the key.

Niki Davis, MD (05:22.611)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, it's seems to be difficult for most people to make, make some of these changes, even if they are small changes, you know, like you mentioned, it doesn't need to be big, huge changes. Although I tend to be that kind of a person. make big changes in life. but it's hard to make those changes. I think people kind of get set and, and they worry that, by making changes in their lives, that it could affect other things. And then maybe it's not.

You know, they have fear about the future. How do you talk to people who are fearful of making changes that help support their needs?

Matthew Lederman (06:07.15)

Yeah, mean, the fear is valid. And at the same time, I guess, if you're not willing to make changes, I hope you're really okay with the status quo. And if you're not okay with the status quo, most people start to make changes when the pain of the status quo becomes higher than the fear of change. And for some people that takes a little time. So it doesn't mean they're gonna be able to change overnight, but some people like talk to and they're thinking about change.

and they're wrapping their head around it. there are some clients I work with that are like, I know that they need to leave that job. I'm just as sure as I'm sitting here. But sometimes they take six months for that to unfold and for their nervous systems to be able to do that. And if they left early, before they were ready, that would be jolting to their nervous system. So I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all. I'm teaching people to connect.

And even that process of just connecting to the fact that I don't like my job and I do want to move, all of a sudden that shifts because you're not suppressing that anymore when you go into a job that you hate and telling yourself you have to go there. So just connecting to the fact that you are going to leave, but you're not ready or you're too scared right now, there's too much fear. I'm not ready. That actually starts to shift your body anyway. So it doesn't mean we have to jolt you.

cause these huge upheaval in people's lives, what's more important is that they start to self-connect and to connect to what their needs are and start taking action, which may just be contemplation at first, but to start taking action, to start meeting their needs and at least identifying them even if they can't meet them in the moment.

Niki Davis, MD (07:56.089)

I really love that because I think we talk a lot, especially about as physicians, we talk about kind of these stages of change and, you know, talking about that there's this contemplative stage. And the way that I've always viewed it is that you have to go through these stages before you get to the point where you can make that change that's going to benefit you, but not really realizing that just that initial moment of that contemplation

you start to get benefit.

I think that's really fascinating.

Matthew Lederman (08:32.59)

Yes, in fact, a lot of people, what they really want in this world, when you get down to all the things that they want, like I want to get a house, I want to get a job, I want to retire, you really want to feel satisfied and fulfilled in your life. And you want to experience inner peace. And if I can feel fulfilled and peaceful, life is pretty amazing. And what we find is that when people connect to their needs, even if they can't meet them,

they start to experience peace. And so many people are not able to connect to their needs. This is actually, I'm stereotyping or I'm generalizing here, but a lot of women, and this is what majority of the work that my wife, that Alona does, is that women have gotten this messaging from, at least in our culture, that if you love people, you sacrifice your needs for the good of your family. Like don't have needs.

It's important to just do what's best for your family, because that's what a good mom or a good wife or whatever. So they've learned to not even connect to their needs. And all of a sudden they're like, wait a second, I have needs? This is like a new thing for me. And then to be able to meet them and to feel what it feels like in their bodies when they can meet these needs all of a sudden, it's fantastic. And then what's interesting is the fear they were worried about the impact, the family starts to, especially when they start to do it with care, the family...

starts to embrace that new person that's full of life. They're alive again. So it actually ripples into amazing things for the entire family, but it's very scary because there's this messaging that somehow gets, you know, gets into the system that is really harmful.

Niki Davis, MD (10:20.132)

Yeah. Well, I have learned a lot today and I just think that this conversation is so important and I don't hear enough of this, I think, out there. know, I certainly being in this plant-based bubble, we talk a lot about the food and of course, the huge benefit to transitioning from a standard American diet to a plant-based diet, absolutely. But it's really interesting to see these additional

important aspects of a healthy, happy life. And so I do really appreciate you sharing your expertise and talking with us about not only what you do, but also some personal stories about how you've seen it work and benefit your own family. So I really appreciate you being here today.

Matthew Lederman (11:14.516)

yeah, thank you for having me and thank you for your openness. If we could just have more doctors be open to the power of connection on health. And when people are struggling with chronic pain and chronic fatigue and struggle sleeping and things like fibromyalgia and gut issues that don't get better and autoimmune diseases that don't get better, know, all of a sudden I would love for them to start thinking about these.

these type of things that they may have overlooked when they're just focusing on exercise and medicine and nutrition. And if people want to learn more about this, we're happy to help medical providers. We're happy to help anybody because it's so important that this gets out there. And I can tell that you can find us if you go to we be together. So W.E.B.E. together dot com.

You can find a lot of the work that we do there. We have a calming device that we created that helps people turn on, you know, parasympathetic activity through breathing and gamifying that for children. have our sub stack where we talk about this regularly. Right now it's a connection docs.com. So connection docs, doc.com. And you can read, there's a lot of free content there. And then our side cast where we talk all about bringing connection into the family.

Currently, it's called webeparents.com and they can get information about that. We do private coaching. Again, connectiondocs.com. So lots of ways to get this information and we're happy to help people in any way that we can. So thank you, Nikki. I appreciate it.

Niki Davis, MD (12:57.019)

Thank you so much. All right. Well, for those of you who are listening, we would love for you to join our growing community at plantbasedsupport.org. You can attend our in-person events or virtual events. And if you loved the show today, help us grow at plantbasedsupport.org. can donate. Every donation does help support more people like you on their journey to health. And in addition to plantbasedsupport.org, you can find us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn.

So please find us there. And thank you again for your time today, Dr. Learman. Until next time, I'm Dr. Nikki Davis with the Plant-Based Support Podcast.